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 Want To Build 20v Blacktop - Suggestions?  

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Kory
  • Kory
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  • From: IN ippy NOT FROM ippy
Post #1 post 14th April 2010 - 06:31 AM
Ok so for some time (about 3 years) I have been wanting to build and swap in a 4A-GE Blacktop to my rolla.

This is not a discussion about wither or not i should do it, but how, so can we keep the "buy a different car" out of it.

Plans:

Engine: 4A-GE Blacktop 20v
Mods:

-288/304 cams - not sure which

-cam gears? i assume i need new ones with this duro?

-remove stock intake, replace with custom box around ITB trumpets, with twin panel filters so as to keep the open to air effect (and noise tongue.gif) while providing filtered air thru cheap and easy to replace filters.

-short trumpets (50mm ish)

-Lightened flywheel?

-decent clutch?

-some kind of ecu? would a Haltech Platinum Sprint 500 work?


I'm aiming for a high revving (9k rpm ish) NA racy style engine with somewhere between 140-180kW

So far for the above parts its looking like about $6.6k

Anyone have any recommendations or thoughts?

Should i rebuild fully or just do the cams and leave the internals alone?

This post has been edited by Kory: Apr 14 2010, 06:32 AM

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20VGT
Post #2

Still planning to attempting to make it All wheel drive? If so you may want to price that up before you even think about the engine. It will cost alot more to adjust the drive type than to fit a 4age.

02GZM
Post #3

Power figures are unrealistic. With a lot of work you could maybe get around 135-140kw at the wheels.
There's more to it than just whacking in big cams too. You'll want to get your compression up to at least around 12:1 or higher to actually make use of the extra flow. You'll also need an upgraded fuel system to provide the extra fuel. And remember, it's still only a 1600cc so there's only so far you can go power wise.

So add something like a 255lph fuel pump, adjustable fuel pressure regulator, a thinner cometic head gasket, labour costs to mill the head and clean up the inlet ports, new headers and a 2.5" exhaust to your list of things.

A more reliable method to milling the head and hoping the engine holds together with the extra power would get high comp pistons, strengthened rods/bearings/bolts, hone the cylinders and do a full rebuild. Which is what I would be doing for a high comp/ high reving engine.

iamhappy46
Post #4

http://www.camshaftshop.co.nz/index.php/4A...p_view.tpl.html

Will need around 13:1CR, the pistons will need to be forged and cut to suit the valve recess required. I know these cams make around 150Kw@flywheel BUT the engine parts and prep work would require around $12K. Dont expect it to be much of a street engine either, it will be a pig to drive around below 4500rpm(like Excels overtaking you) so dont expect cruising at 100km/h in top gear to be fun. Most likely need to be in 4th gear at 4500rpm just to get a decent amount of torque to keep 100km/h a constant speed.

In Japan, the 4AGE motors are actually getting around 170Kw@crank BUT they need full engine rebuilds every 5000km's due to engine stresses etc.

lo_rolla
Post #5

Read this thread.
Lots of information.
Don't much change from 15k.
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/s...-revving-BT-20v

Kory
Post #6

QUOTE (lo_rolla @ Apr 15 2010, 06:19 PM) *
Read this thread.
Lots of information.
Don't much change from 15k.
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/s...-revving-BT-20v


Thanks, heaps of good info.

What doesnt change much from 15k?

Kory
Post #7

I want over 140 at the fly

how hard could it be to add 20kw

QUOTE (02GZM @ Apr 15 2010, 03:36 PM) *
Power figures are unrealistic. With a lot of work you could maybe get around 135-140kw at the wheels.
There's more to it than just whacking in big cams too. You'll want to get your compression up to at least around 12:1 or higher to actually make use of the extra flow. You'll also need an upgraded fuel system to provide the extra fuel. And remember, it's still only a 1600cc so there's only so far you can go power wise.

So add something like a 255lph fuel pump, adjustable fuel pressure regulator, a thinner cometic head gasket, labour costs to mill the head and clean up the inlet ports, new headers and a 2.5" exhaust to your list of things.

A more reliable method to milling the head and hoping the engine holds together with the extra power would get high comp pistons, strengthened rods/bearings/bolts, hone the cylinders and do a full rebuild. Which is what I would be doing for a high comp/ high reving engine.
Mongrel
Post #8

QUOTE (Kory @ Apr 16 2010, 02:00 AM) *
I want over 140 at the fly

how hard could it be to add 20kw



you're modifying a already high strung naturally aspirated 1.6, 20 kw is a huge increase in power.
If you went turbo then an extra 20 kw is nothing, but wringing another 20 kw out of a N/A 4A will cost big dollars.

"Don't much change from 15k" = Budget for a $15,000 build(parts, machining, ecu, labor, tuning, etc.)
02GZM
Post #9

QUOTE (Kory @ Apr 16 2010, 02:00 AM) *
I want over 140 at the fly

how hard could it be to add 20kw


who talks in flywheel kw....
Kory
Post #10

Toyota

QUOTE (02GZM @ Apr 16 2010, 06:51 AM) *
who talks in flywheel kw....
20VGT
Post #11

And precisely how do you intend on determining your Flywheel KW? Running the engine in on an engine dyno are you?

Or just gonna take a guess at what the power loss is through your drivetrain?

Kory
Post #12

Im not an engine builder, this is a field where i know hardly anything. I talked to a motorsport engineer, he told me he could get 180kW from a 20V with no internal mods.

Yes i know, it sounds kinda stupidly high, so i said between 140-180. The only power figures i know of the 20Vs are from the fly, as thats how toyota quotes them.

If anyone knows the likely stock wheel kW and modifyed wheel kW feel free to post them.

QUOTE (20VGT @ Apr 16 2010, 12:45 PM) *
And precisely how do you intend on determining your Flywheel KW? Running the engine in on an engine dyno are you?

Or just gonna take a guess at what the power loss is through your drivetrain?
iamhappy46
Post #13

Telling you right now the power figures I quoted above are KNOWN 20 valve 4AGE power outputs from the cams I linked. The engine mods required are as above an power figure on pump fuel.

180Kw@flywheel is completely unrealistic... last time I checked, motorsport engineers(which one?) dont build race engines and race engine builders would tell you that street engines wont make that much power as its 150Hp per litre. Hell, my VQ35 is running bigger cams, has a better flowing head and reaches the same rpm as you are aiming for and on pump fuel it wont make more than 130Hp/litre. So my roughly 125/litre(150Kw) is pretty damn accurate for a semi-streetable engine smile.gif

So 118Kw@flywheel up to 150Kw@flywheel is roughly a 25% gain for around $12K.

02GZM
Post #14

20v's are actually quite well designed so extracting more power isn't as simple as your run of the mill econo engine. Especially since it's staying NA. And the guy you spoke to clearly didn't know what he was on about. A 40kw estimated variance is huge. He basically told you he had no idea.

Kory
Post #15

Ok lets do this the other way round.

A stock 20v BT will put out about 90WkW

with TODA 304 cams, cam gears, 50mm trumpets, better fuel pump, aforementioned ecu, and a better exhaust system (aftermarket headers, custom back from there) what figures are we thinking?

also as for drivability, how will the power curve look compared to my current engine (4A-FE). I'm not too worried about it having low power at low revs as my current engine generally just has low power, so if its about the same until you rev to 4k, i don't mind at all. I drive around between 2.5/4.5k general driving anyway because that's where all the power is.

Also i have herd that trumpet lengths play a major roll in where in the rev range the torque is delivered, and that 50mm would be good for high revs.

As for 9k being high revving, it is for a normal engine, but i don't think it can really be said for this engine, as it has a 8200 red-line from the factory, 800rpm isn't a lot more. Personally id love 9.5k.

02GZM
Post #16



With just those mods you'd maybe make over 100kw atw. Throwing larger cams in a car without having the compression to run them wont get you very far. Check out this Toda built 20v on 9000rpm.net

QUOTE
Engine: Toyota 4AGE 20v Blacktop

Cylinder Head
Gas flowed and port matched 4AGE 20v Blacktop
TODA 304 deg 9mm Lift intake and exhaust Camshafts with TODA cam gears
TODA Cambelt
TODA Metal Head Gasket

Bottom End
Standard 4AGE 42mm Crankshaft
TODA 11.8:1 Compression 81.25mm Pistons
Lightweight forged Conrods
Arp 2000 head, conrod , and flywheel bolts
Fully Balanced

Flywheel: TODA Lightweight Chrome-molly
Ignition: 4AGZE Coil Packs with 10mm Accel Ignition Leads
Gearbox: TRD Toyota C56 short ratio with TRD 1.5 way LSD
Clutch: TRD 212mm Copper Clutch Kit
ECU: Gotech Pro
Fuel Pump: Walbro 9 bar
Injectors: Stock 4AGE 20v injectors
Rev Limiter: 10 000RPM
Intake: 4AGE 20v 45mm Inidivdual throttles with TODA spec 75mm Ram tubes
Headers: Custom 44mm Equal Length Mandrel Bent 4 into 1
Exhaust: 63mm 1 Box Mandrel Bent system
Suspension: Tein Coilovers with track setup suspension
Power: 138kw on the wheels @ 8900 RPM 193 Nm @ 6300 on pump 95 octane


Huge power isn't easy to obtain in a NA car. As you can see this guy has spent an absolute fortune to get 138kw (like a few other people have told you it would cost).
Also, increasing the RPM limit even just slightly puts enormous stresses on the engine. I cbf doing physics atm but every 1000rpm would just about double the centrifugal force on the pistons/rods. And the stock con rods most likely wont last long before one snaps and blows out the block. Something you may have noticed from this guys car is he reaches peak power at 8900rpm. And peak torque much earlier. So reving past this amount is just pointless as it's adding increased stresses and not gaining power. That's even with the upgraded/lighter crank, rods, pistons and flywheel.

lo_rolla
Post #17

Stock rods in these aren't known for strength.

You could get 150rwkw. But it's not cheap. I'm going for a little more then that with my NA 4AGE, but I'm stroking mine. And I'm 16V
My rough price list 12k in parts before machining, fitting and tune.



Have you considered doing a 7AGE?
ECU, 7AFE bottom End, Spool Rods, 4AGZE Pistons, ARP studs, Cams.
Piss easy, lots of blokes are doing them, not as many revs but a lot more torque.
iamhappy46
Post #18

My VQ35 is hitting 9300rpm BUT the heads are flowing over [email protected] of lift.

As per the stress formula, going from 7200rpm to 9000rpm is a 57% increase in load on the rotating mass


Also, South Africa use the USA calibrated dynos so drivetrain loss on a FWD is around 10% to 15% so around 160Kw@flywheel smile.gif
Kory
Post #19

QUOTE (02GZM @ Apr 17 2010, 12:18 PM) *
Check out this Toda built 20v on 9000rpm.net


QUOTE
Accolades
2 x Pakisa Street Class Title Holder posting track times faster than M3's and an Audi R8


EPIC WANT!

yeah thats basically what i want my car to be.

so the guesstimate is $15k for essentially that?

sounds a little out of my budget straight away, but like every project i start, it would be likely to get out of hand by a few thousand $.

Ok, so for starters, with say $5k, what should i be looking for/doing? is a 6 speed box worth it?

Thanks for the help so far.

Kory
Post #20

QUOTE (iamhappy46 @ Apr 17 2010, 01:57 PM) *
As per the stress formula, going from 7200rpm to 9000rpm is a 57% increase in load on the rotating mass


BTs are 8.2k standard.

02GZM
Post #21

QUOTE (Kory @ Apr 18 2010, 02:08 AM) *
BTs are 8.2k standard.


I still wouldn't risk going over the stock rev limit without upgrading the valve springs and con rods. You won't be making power past that point unless you raise the comp when you swap the cams anyway. And if you're going to open it up you may as well do all the internal work / get it tuned in 1 hit.

As for the gearbox, if you cant find a 6-speed with LSD it might be easier to try and find a LSD and higher final drive for the 5-speed to shorten the gear ratio's and give you added traction through turns. That's a mod that you'd definitely notice straight away.

I'm not sure how well Toyota gearboxes react to interchanging gearsets, but if you do get hold of a really high final drive it might pay to swap the longer 5th gear from a more subtle gearbox to keep revs lower in 5th when highway driving.

That's something I'll be doing to my car once I redo my gearbox as I don't feel like sitting at 4k rpm on the drive to work dry.gif

iamhappy46
Post #22

Any decent camshaft would require a valvespring upgrade anyway due to the valve lift(unless you like coil bind) Supertech do some great valvesprings to suit I believe smile.gif

iamhappy46
Post #23

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=2798...id=226717265270

20V Kelford Cams making 150Kw wink.gif

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