Beannie
Post #631
i just had a read through some of the posts in the past few pages recently, and i really have to say something... (and i mean this with no dis-respect to anyone) |
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nodrog
Post #633
not everyone has the money to go out and spend on all these little extra bits n pieces because 1 person has them, so the rules are relaxed for the rest of the entrants. move them to modifed, or remove the mods and replace to stock!?? thoughts? I agree completely and would like to raise the suggestion of having the points include a system based on money spent..... ie the more you spend the less points you earn. After all it was this phrase that caught my eye Its going to be cheap and fun. I for one am trying to do as mush as possible to keep my costs down, and am shitting myself when it comes to the big ticket items like suspension and tyres. The rest I can do myself to keep the costs down. I was given a damaged X2 and while probably not the best car to use it is what I have. I have already replaced the damaged headlights to keep the body stock, however I have tried to find a genuine dashboard, but no luck as they are all sun damaged etc seeing it is a 1993 model. If we dont allow some flexibility then there will be cars that will not be usable and need to be replaced = increased costs. A further suggestion is to split the rules into performance and safety rules, with the safety rules being firmer and less open to change but still acknowledging that these are old cars and parts will become harder to find as time goes by. If there are 2 classes how is it decided which class someone is in, stock by definition includes everything the car came out of the factory with, so change of tyre brand is a mod!!!!??? Install roll cage for safety = mod, install seat for safety = mod!!!!!! Where do we draw the line???? |
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X3man
Post #634
Performance mods. |
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PRO050
Post #635
i just had a read through some of the posts in the past few pages recently, and i really have to say something... (and i mean this with no dis-respect to anyone) this is supposed to be a stock car class series. I understand basic mods are allowed, but seriously, you have to draw the line somewhere on this. all this talk about sticky/soft/semi-slick tyres, larger swaybars, removing dashes (and possibly other 'stock-car' safety aspects) needs to be looked at. i'm not out to write or re-write the rules, and i'm not the one enforcing them, but this is a stock car series is it not?? this should be a series to be competitive against another driver, not their car's ability i firmly beleive the rules at the start of the series were quite adequate for a stock car series. all of these cars running extra this and that, should be moved to a modified series and keep the rules of the stock series quite firm. not everyone has the money to go out and spend on all these little extra bits n pieces because 1 person has them, so the rules are relaxed for the rest of the entrants. move them to modifed, or remove the mods and replace to stock!?? thoughts? The talk about tyres is just that talk, Jeff said only if he could cut a cheap tyre deal and as yet he hasn't, so don't stress. Just get out and turn some laps and work on your driving you'll pick up more time than any 1mm larger swaybar will give you. Don't just go and throw a heap of money and parts at it, if your on a budget than drive it and get a feel for it so you know if the changes you do later make an improvement. Jeff took a completly stock car out with standard old hard tyres, the car was partially stripped inside and ran 72's, if he went out with a wheel alingment and tyres next time he would be on the pace with no other changes. Jeff has done alot of laps around Lakeside and the best improvemets you can make is seat time. Cheers Paul |
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slow bus
Post #636
WOW alot of people blowing up about cost of tyres, the difference between running a KU36 or the like and a non name chinese brand is a round of drinks. and if you think you can get away with running on old tyres more power to you, |
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neil_se
Post #637
I agree completely and would like to raise the suggestion of having the points include a system based on money spent..... ie the more you spend the less points you earn. After all it was this phrase that caught my eye Its going to be cheap and fun. That never works, all of a sudden people start getting cars for nothing and mods for free, ie. never disclose the real costs to minimise penalty. |
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benno.h
Post #638
Alright, for those of you whinging about tyres etc, have you actually driven your car on the track with the tyres it came with? They will flat out suck. Nor to mention are probably not speed rated for what we are doing with them and are fuggin dangerous. You WILL NEED NEW TYRES. You can get good ones for ~$100-150 a corner, or shit ones for less than $100 a corner. If you want to be competitive, get the good ones. If you can't afford it, suck it up princess. WOW alot of people blowing up about cost of tyres, the difference between running a KU36 or the like and a non name chinese brand is a round of drinks. and if you think you can get away with running on old tyres more power to you, At the price for a half cage it should be manadtory, cut out the other mods and make safety first. Sway bars should be kept stock, if you have a cage installed the benefit of rigidity of the car would give the same net gain as upgrading sway bars. Really you should be able to setup a reasonable car for under 2.5K $1000 car purchase $500 ROPS $500 springs and shocks $500 tyres Dismounts highhorse and gets himself a drink Body stiffness (i.e cage) has absolutely *nothing* to do with roll stiffness (sway bars). Not even on the same planet. A decent rear sway bar, for the cost of a single race entry fee, will transform the excel into a rolly, understeering pig into a neutral, flat cornering, predictable handling car. And if you can get springs and shocks for $500 you're doing pretty bloody well... You forgot the race seat, harness, helmet, race suits, all those incidental $100 trips to supershit... This is car racing guys. It's not cheap, and it never will be. |
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sv8nato
Post #639
i just had a read through some of the posts in the past few pages recently, and i really have to say something... (and i mean this with no dis-respect to anyone) i totally agree this is why i wanted to run in this series cause i was running my v8 vy in the sprints and it was proving to be really expensive so when i seen a (cheap and fun series)i wanted in
this is supposed to be a stock car class series. I understand basic mods are allowed, but seriously, you have to draw the line somewhere on this. all this talk about sticky/soft/semi-slick tyres, larger swaybars, removing dashes (and possibly other 'stock-car' safety aspects) needs to be looked at. i'm not out to write or re-write the rules, and i'm not the one enforcing them, but this is a stock car series is it not?? this should be a series to be competitive against another driver, not their car's ability i firmly beleive the rules at the start of the series were quite adequate for a stock car series. all of these cars running extra this and that, should be moved to a modified series and keep the rules of the stock series quite firm. not everyone has the money to go out and spend on all these little extra bits n pieces because 1 person has them, so the rules are relaxed for the rest of the entrants. move them to modifed, or remove the mods and replace to stock!?? thoughts? |
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trackattack
Post #640
The only 2 changes to the original rules are wheel diameter size and swaybars. |
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trackattack
Post #641
Also did I mention that the Stanthorpe Sprints are now only $60.00 from 12:00 to 5:00 - http://www.trackattack.com.au/carnell |
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nodrog
Post #642
The only 2 changes to the original rules are wheel diameter size and swaybars. ignoring the swaybars for the moment.... How many of you want to stick with the 13" wheels ? have you looked at what tyres are available ? I doubt you will get anything softer than +350 UTQG Maybe rules have not been changed but they have been added to signifficantly changing the original idea. I have a set printed out on 4 March which did not mention anything about the dash and door cards (not that door cards are an issue!!). This is probably what caused a few to remove their dash, and in some cases probably discard it, but now the "change" requires them to refit. I think the compromise of having a safe alternative is a good one and I guess the ruling on what is safe or not will be up to the powers that be ie QR people. It might be a good idea for the future to post that a rule change/amendment/clarification has been made on here when it gets changed on trackattack. Please don't get me wrong I am not trying to break the rules but chasing a moving goal post can be hard. I still think that the driving force must always be safety, and that any mod must keep safety first and foremost, and this includes any performance mods. I think the rules on tyres is good as it does allow for the safety of the cars to be addressed, yes they are going harder than they should and the only connection between the car and the road is the tyres so good ones are the best option. Maybe just specify road based tyres (already done), set a retail $$ figure (ie the $300 ceiling already set) and a treadware limit (ie 180 as in the KU36) and let the choice be up the the driver. |
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nodrog
Post #643
On another note what is the best way to mount a battery in the car?? I need to move mine to make way for the pod and though of putting towards the rear of the cabin, but don't like the idea of having acid somewhere where it could spill on me in the event of an accident. |
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NISMOgemini
Post #644
let us know what you have and i might be interested in buying thats crap cause now i have to buy a new dash cause as with most excels mine was so sun damaged that i had a big hole in it and when i started to pull the dash out it fell apart,its startin to get abit more than cheap racing with all these changes so me and three of my mates that are getin cars ready for the next raceday are thinkin of maybe not bothering and scrappin our cars
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trackattack
Post #645
Clarifications have been made where the intention of the rule was perceived one way by someone with some previous competition experience and a different way by someone who was new to the sport. The intention of the rules hasn't changed. |
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NISMOgemini
Post #646
Jebus.. whats with the whining about “rule changing” |
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slow bus
Post #647
Body stiffness (i.e cage) has absolutely *nothing* to do with roll stiffness (sway bars). Not even on the same planet. A decent rear sway bar, for the cost of a single race entry fee, will transform the excel into a rolly, understeering pig into a neutral, flat cornering, predictable handling car. |
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wasas
Post #648
Far to much to quote, BUT Points I'll make are as follows: |
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Beannie
Post #650
well, wasn't trying to open a can of worms, but it's good to see some constructive talk about this (rather than typical boostcruising garbo). |
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trackattack
Post #651
On the dash issue If I just sika a dash mat over the craked ad shitty dash will that be acceptable? should be fine if the dash is still solid underneath. Just off the topic a little, what is the minium cage you need to run in the circuit racing. And does this cover Lakeside, QR and other misc venues To run AASA circuit racing minumum is 4 point cage - more details are here http://www.trackattack.com.au/forms/circui...and_apparel.pdf to run with a roll cage at and cams events you need to comply with this http://www.camsmanual.com.au/pdf/10_gen_re...dule_J_Q110.pdf |
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trackattack
Post #652
The cheapest sway bar I have found is $220 I am working on a swaybar package, will let you know when I have pricing finalised. RE Tyres - Shaun at Tyres and More behind Maccas at Albion will do Yokohama S Drive 195x50x15 for $150 each fitted ph: 3862 6200 he needs a days notice to get them in. Cheers Jeff |
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nodrog
Post #653
well, wasn't trying to open a can of worms, but it's good to see some constructive talk about this (rather than typical boostcruising garbo). I myself am happy with the rules as is, and the tyres and suspension rules that currently stand are quite adequate. I'm not out there to re-invent the wheel, i'm looking for a fair and even playing field with safe options for all drivers. i myself was first time out no experience at lakeside in stock road tyres and car (exception of rear seats out) and posted 72seconds in only 2 runs out there (shared entry with brother) Naturally learning the lines better and car's ability should be up to pace with you guys with practice. im summary, i dont wish to see rules relaxed for these stock series to much more for the entirety of the series, maybe next year? Hey Beannie I like your thinknig. I think that there is still room to introduce an element of risk assessment and management in the class. I for 1 have decided that I will run a full 6 point cage as a minimum, and have gone about sourcing appropriate materils and building one. Based on this thinking, and the use of a full 5 point harness and race seat, the likelihood of hitting the dash has been significantly reduced, and in order to further manage the risk I am intending to construct something that would further reduce and sharp edges etc. My dilemma and I speak only for myself is that this approach is as safe as I can achieve beyond finding and replacing an original dash, which I have tried to find and in reality those available are likely to be "unsafe" due to significant sun damage and pure age as they are in wreckers with damaged or no windscreens. All the other rules I agree with completely, but we also need to accomodate circumstances in which a safer option is proposed over the original where original equipment is scarce or not available. Maybe we should have a formalised process to seek the "approval" of the powers that be in certain circumstances. |
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benno.h
Post #654
Hey Beannie I like your thinknig. I think that there is still room to introduce an element of risk assessment and management in the class. I for 1 have decided that I will run a full 6 point cage as a minimum, and have gone about sourcing appropriate materils and building one. Based on this thinking, and the use of a full 5 point harness and race seat, the likelihood of hitting the dash has been significantly reduced, and in order to further manage the risk I am intending to construct something that would further reduce and sharp edges etc. My dilemma and I speak only for myself is that this approach is as safe as I can achieve beyond finding and replacing an original dash, which I have tried to find and in reality those available are likely to be "unsafe" due to significant sun damage and pure age as they are in wreckers with damaged or no windscreens. All the other rules I agree with completely, but we also need to accomodate circumstances in which a safer option is proposed over the original where original equipment is scarce or not available. Maybe we should have a formalised process to seek the "approval" of the powers that be in certain circumstances. FWIW, the dash is going to do fuck all to reduce/prevent head injury for the passenger. It's a 2-3mm, hard, brittle plastic shell. Your head will go straight through it , shattering it into a pile of jagged shards, and continue on to what ever pointy structures are underneath. I think it would be safer to remove the dash entirely, cut off sharp metal edges and construct a proper padded, shock absorbent structure. All of this is pretty academic if there's only a driver in there however. Your head *might* hit the top of the steering wheel if there's enough stretch in your harness but I doubt it. I'd be more worried about the car completely deforming in a crash and shattering your knees on the dash or crushing your chest with the steering wheel. |
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NISMOgemini
Post #655
id say its more you limbs flinging around hitting sharp bracketry.. not your head.. thats inside a full face helmet |
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nodrog
Post #656
id say its more you limbs flinging around hitting sharp bracketry.. not your head.. thats inside a full face helmet Ok but what is a flimsy piece of plastic going to do to stop that??? Not trying to be smart but the X2s probably predate any real crash testing and the plastice on them sucks. I have already removed all the sharp bits and put padding, the same as that used on roll bars, in place which I believe is better than flimsy plastic panels held on with clips. |
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Evaded Motorsport
Post #657
Whiteline swaybars at full retail are $204 for the X3, |
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NISMOgemini
Post #658
Ok but what is a flimsy piece of plastic going to do to stop that??? Not trying to be smart but the X2s probably predate any real crash testing and the plastice on them sucks. I have already removed all the sharp bits and put padding, the same as that used on roll bars, in place which I believe is better than flimsy plastic panels held on with clips. your not shooting your body at it from a cannon.. would you rather jump on a bed of nails with out without a layer of plastic, foam and trim over it??? its more then enough to protect you from whats under it |
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Marlin
Post #660
talkin shit, nothing to read here I think you got me wrong mate, I'm not a hater! lol I posted the YouTube video only to highlight the safety aspect, I'm not doubting they're great fun (heck I took my old stock KE55 Corrolla around Lakeside in the 90's just to get out there!), my only concern is the safety aspect not wanting to see likeminded guys/gals gettin hurt. As for the pace of the Excels, yeah they're doing great times around Lakeside because that track is all about keeping momentum and average speed up..... doubly as important in an Excel and the good drivers will be rewarded for it I wanna have a crack in one! lol |
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Big_Red_
Post #661
Haveing talked to the wreckers, 15" wheels are perhaps a fair bit harder to come across then initially anticipated. Thing is I need to replace the tyres on the stock 13's pretty damn soon. So unless some cheap 15's fall from the sky in the next few weeks it looks like I will be running 13's. |
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nodrog
Post #662
your not shooting your body at it from a cannon.. would you rather jump on a bed of nails with out without a layer of plastic, foam and trim over it??? its more then enough to protect you from whats under it To answer you questionI would rather jump on a bed of nails that has all the sharp bit of the nails removed before being covered with padding. Have you looked at an X2?? Hopefully the X3 has improved but the X2 has a very sharp edged steel plate supporting the relays abiut an inch or so away from where you loud pedal leg is!!!! and then they put this piece of plastice over is that is probably thinner than a condom!! This was not an acceptable option for me so ALL sharp edges were removed and /or relocated. I actually like the bits attached to my body and although they are a bit worn their condition is still accepatable to me and I hope to keep them that way. As it is now the only solid bit I have to worry about on the driver side or that is reachable by any of my extremities is the solid smooth bar, the pedals and the gear level, all of which are better than having sharp bits waiting to cut me to bits hidden benind a bit os dodgy plastic. But this is all a pointless discussion as the rules allow a "safe suitable replacement" which is the route I am taking, and the deciding factor would be the QR people. |
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nodrog
Post #665
I think in essence the original idea was to have the vehicles drivable to the track legally. Removing a dashboard simply isn't legal. Neither is adding a pod and stripping out the interiors anyway, and roll cages????? Sounds to me like most of the current cars don't meet the essence of the original idea. Without looking at the ARDs I can't comment on the removel of the dash but there are a few cars that just don't have a dash just an instrument cluster. |
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